Congratulations on the birth of your son, but I’m a little worried about your plans to ‘ teach my child the Qur’an (the so-called bastions of ‘freedom of speech’ think is a “fascist” book), to read, understand and most importantly implement every word to the letter.’ Does this mean he won’t be making friends with any Christians or Jews? Not really the sort of upbringing one should endorse in a supposedly pluralistic, multicultural society…

‘I hope to teach the idea that Shari’ah is the most superior system when compared to any other system on earth whether it is spiritual, social or political.’

Shouldn’t he be allowed to work this out for himself? What would happen if he concluded that Islamic law is a throwback to a primitivist, long out-of-date mindset that enshrines gender discrimination and inequality and rejects religious pluralism? What would happen if he rejected it?

‘…have a gaul to criticize how Islam treats the institution of marriage with young women, where proper consent and a safe environment is set up before engaging in family life.’

No doubt you’ll be encouraging him to entrap a six year-old before consummating the marriage when the bride reaches 9, then?

Thank you, Mr. Badr ud deen al Huthi for your introductory words and your genuine concern for my son’s upbringing.

At one point I feel, “here it goes again” and another I feel “yes, another opportunity…lets engage”, so please bear this in mind when I address your points.

I love it when some of the most common misconceptions are brought into light with such eloquence that I feel the need to completely do my best to remove them. But in your case I do not think, for one bit, that you will ever see our understanding on the issues on which we have opinions. But for the benefit of the readers of the blog it is best we address them.

As for your clichéd, neo-conservative statement of not making friends with Christians and Jews, on face value and superficial reading of the Quranic text, one can come to that conclusion. One question I beg to obtain an answer to is, who in Little Britain claims to be a Christian and Jew and follows their religious edicts to the letter? Not many I presume. However the majority of people my child will interact with will be atheists & agnostics or lesser god forsaken people like humanists. But lets look at it another way, if my child made “friends” with someone from this multicultural & pluralistic society, will he engage in the ritual event of going to the pub after work for a few pints? Will he socialize in nightclubs and bars and participate in the hedonistic arts of “picking up” girls? Engross himself in experimentation with drugs and narcotics and if that is too “boring” hang out in one of the Soho clubs? The alternative my friend is not attractive at all. Your presumption of endorsing what is right and what is wrong needs further substantiating.

The classic postulation that anyone who believes in Islam is a monosyllabic, misanthropic, medieval moron that does not for one second think about what he believes in is the standard picture the western politicians and media tries to portray. This, you are very much guilty of Mr. Badr ud deen al Huthi. Humans are encouraged by the Quran at every part of their journey to Islam to think and ponder conscientiously. If by Allah (swt)’s Will my son rejects Islam then to him his fate has been written. I cannot force him to accept Islam in his heart; there is no compulsion in religion. However, please in your future responses do not bring the same old, primitive and lethargic argument that in Islam there is no choice given when choosing to follow it.

With what audacity do you assume that every son I will have Inshallah, will entrap a six year old girl? If it was a sly way of attacking what the Prophet (saw) had done then you are among those that itch to follow misguidance and always resort to solipsism because you are invariably thin on sources. Firstly there is difference of opinion on the exact age of Ayesha (r.a) and on top of it a gross misrepresentation of her infancy. What you need to realize is that it was a custom of the Arabs of that time, and is no longer prevalent in our day and age, just like slavery.

Your shotgun remarks to try demote Islam and its values are flimsicle and misconstrued. It is no surprise you move on every single point, without exception, from incorrect premises to false conclusions.

Ya Shaykh,

“Given that you found your way onto our blog and have managed to formulate a comment, I presume you are a rational human being. Why, then, would you take one approach to life, and another to religion?”

I try to be rational as often as I can; the fact that I don’t believe in the absolute and unassailable truth of certain texts may have something to do with our respective perceptions of what is rational behaviour.

“We could take your fractured approach and insist that a child is allowed to “work out” language for himself, or work out safety for himself by playing with electricity. I’d just rather not. Surely even you would advocate education of children? Naturally, any parent would teach their child and concern themselves with their child’s safety.”

I wouldn’t say my approach was fractured, but perhaps according to your belief system it may seem just that.

I totally agree with your position on the education of the child with regards language and electrical safety, but even in these matters children must be allowed the freedom to work things out for themselves. Surely, though, there’s a clear difference between educating a child in terms of faith on the one hand, and language and electricity on the other. No doubt we disagree, and this is underlined by your first paragraph, about what the sources of that faith are; for instance, unlike yourself, I don’t consider the Qur’an the literal word of God, so I would run its chapters and verses through my own ethical and moral interpretation centre first, before educating my daughter when she’s old enough.

“Specifically, both you and I were given morals, taught rules and laws. We were even given (taught) preferences for foods, music, etc. Just take a look at your hairstyle, your choice of clothing, etc, and consider how many of these factors you’ve developed independently of all outside influence. In this case, a parent is choosing to be that influence.”

Yes, you’re right. Except I discovered early on that you should treat those around you as you would like to be treated. This simple ethical paradigm, which has been formulated by a confluence of internal and external factors, helps me to sift through advice and other forms of information that I would consider unethical. Therefore, when I first came across the significant portions of the Qur’an which I considered unprincipled, after careful consideration and after running them past my conscience, I deemed them unworthy of consideration for my personal development. Of course, you may disagree with this, and this may be the ‘fractured approach’ to which you are referring.

“Children are born eating, sleeping and defecating whenever and wherever they wish. All responsible adults teach their children to meet certain standards as part of a child’s upbringing. While someone may choose to live in a pile of faeces, I presume you and I do not, and hence find your argument contradictory to your actions.”

My argument is not over how you educate your children and whether you do or not, I’m merely perturbed as to your choice of moral guidance: there are undoubtedly some excellent maxims to be gleaned from the Qur’an, but as to whether the text in its entirety can be used as a guidebook, then I would have to disagree. The antisemitism, violence, misogyny expounded in the text is one problem; the convoluted nature of the text and its dogma are another.

Surely children don’t choose where to be born or even when to eat, sleep and defecate? Physiology has as much to do with these actions as free will.

Your argument about living in faeces is illogical at best I’m afraid; I just can’t see where you’re coming from. My apologies if I’m being a bit of a dullard.

Whilst I accept that you may feel that shari’ah is the most efficient, ethical and superlative relgio-politico-cultural system, and fully support your right to educate your child to this end, what I would consider unacceptable, would be to deny the right of your child to evaluate this system for himself. The freedom to choose and make decisions allow Islam to be practised in the UK, but if the practice of and belief in Islam envision the restriction of freedom of belief and conscience for all then I can only condemn those adherents who seek to impose it on others by whatever measure.

Ya Anda,

“I love it when some of the most common misconceptions are brought into light with such eloquence that I feel the need to completely do my best to remove them. But in your case I do not think, for one bit, that you will ever see our understanding on the issues on which we have opinions. But for the benefit of the readers of the blog it is best we address them.”

It’s very kind of you to characterise my ‘misconceptions’ as eloquent…My central aim is to be clear and to the point.

Please do continue striving to remove my misconceptions; I identify with most of the issues that you set forth. Where I do disagree, it is only with your proposed solutions with society’s ills. Let us continue this dialogue in good faith; I think you would be surprised at just how little our remedies diverge.

“As for your clichéd, neo-conservative statement of not making friends with Christians and Jews, on face value and superficial reading of the Quranic text, one can come to that conclusion.”

But aren’t Muslims exhorted to implement the doctrine of the Qur’an and Sunnah to the letter? Surely disagreement with one of the Qur’an’s manifest and unambiguous commands is to accept disbelief? Perhaps you are advocating the allegorical or esoteric meaning of such ordinances…

Whilst I accept that many ‘Muslims’ is the UK might have Jewish or Christian colleagues, nay even friends, I reserve the right to question their implementation of the Qur’anic verses and prophetic sayings governing dealings with those of other faiths. Are you saying that the Qur’an, when it commands Muslims not to take Jews and Christians as friends (5:51), is using metaphor?

“…One question I beg to obtain an answer to is, who in Little Britain claims to be a Christian and Jew and follows their religious edicts to the letter? Not many I presume.”

A significantly larger proportion of the population than Muslims. No doubt Christians and Jews would differ on your interpretation of ‘to the letter’. Unlike Islam (as I have been born to understand it), Christians and Jews do not believe in the literal truth of the entirety of their holy books and both recognise the importance of free will.

Alas, you base your understanding of religious observance and faith in the UK on two fallacies: firstly that the completely unrepresentative population of areas in London mirror the UK as a whole; and secondly, that one must go to church or synagogue to be considered a ‘believer’ or even ‘follow a religious edict’. Must one go to the mosque to pray, or is prayer in congregation anywhere on the planet (one gigantic masjid) acceptable?

“…However the majority of people my child will interact with will be atheists & agnostics or lesser god forsaken people like humanists.”

How can you be so sure? Have you met and personally questioned each person that your child will come into contact with? Perhaps your belief system grounded in Islam precludes the likelihood and present reality of a resurgence in Jewish/Christian congreagational observance? The information that I have is that Conservative and Orthodox synagogues are flourishing, as is the Orthodx population of the UK; likewise, many evengelical congregations and some Anglican and Catholic churches are literally bursting at the seams. Do you propose to know the Unknown?

Moreover, the idea that more than a relatively small minority of those who would consider themselves Muslim are religiously observant, perform congregational or individual prayer or seriously uphold the other pillars of faith, is specious. I saw some decidedly empty-looking masjids when I was in London recently when they should have been filled with worshippers in seclusion or praying the superprerogatory prayers.

“…But lets look at it another way, if my child made “friends” with someone from this multicultural & pluralistic society, will he engage in the ritual event of going to the pub after work for a few pints?

The concept of a multicultural UK is a fallacy trumped up by the government and other special interest groups; the UK, outside of about 5 cities is decidely monocultural and going to the pub after work for a few pints is only one of the thousands of activities that most UK citizens choose to involve themselves in. More to the point though, what’s wrong with going to the pub for a few pints (of lemonade)? At least no-one forces you to drink alcohol…

“Will he socialize in nightclubs and bars and participate in the hedonistic arts of “picking up” girls?”

Not that I’d term ‘picking up girls’ as ‘hedonistic’, but I wouldn’t consider these activities as objectivally morally wrong.

Engross himself in experimentation with drugs and narcotics and if that is too “boring” hang out in one of the Soho clubs?

The strange thing about London and the rest of the UK and narcotics is that these ‘narcotics’ originate from outside the UK. I consider it extremely damning that the world’s three most common recreational drugs are cultivated mainly in so-called Islamic countries or those nations with a less than respectable record on law, order and corruption. I also find it damning that a large proportion of those involved in the illicit drigs trade in the UK have roots in these countries.

Surely you must have encountered individuals and entire communities right across the UK involved in objectivally moral activities, rooted in non-Islamic belief systems? The beneficent legacy of British philanthropy, egalitarianism and altruism can be seen worldwide. Were the individuals, communities and organisations as well as their efforts responsible for such innovations as parliamentary democracy, charitable institutions, organised sports and the like not rooted in belief systems other than Islam, the world wold be a much poorer place and you most certainly would not be able to add to our rich tapestry with your erudite thoughts and comments through the medium of this site.

“…The alternative my friend is not attractive at all. Your presumption of endorsing what is right and what is wrong needs further substantiating.”

Okay, I’ll substantiate it for you: the Qur’an and Sunnah do not hold the only objectivally moral guidance for mankind. Furthermore, they do not in any way shape or form constitute an absolute solution to the myriad of ethical dilemmas faced by the human race today. What I say is right and wrong is not objectivally right or wrong; neither are the decrees of the Qur’an and Sunnah. Of course, you may disagree…

“The classic postulation that anyone who believes in Islam is a monosyllabic, misanthropic, medieval moron that does not for one second think about what he believes in is the standard picture the western politicians and media tries to portray.”

I’m positive that this monotone picture you paint of Western opinion as evidenced through the statements of politicians and journalists is decidedly unreal; indeed, it is surreal. From my perspective, there is an ongoing and healthy debate about Islam and Muslims proceeding in both the traditional and new media. Alas, the situation is not so healthy in parliament, where any departure from politically correct dogma is viciously curtailed.

“This, you are very much guilty of Mr. Badr ud deen al Huthi. Humans are encouraged by the Quran at every part of their journey to Islam to think and ponder conscientiously.”

If I am guilty, then is only of forming an opinion based on my own research and intellect…and it’s certainly not as uniform as you’d characterise it.

I do continue to ponder over Islam and its canonical texts; Islam pervades the lives of my wife and I and our only child perhaps more so than any other subject. I can honestly say that my lifetime has been infused with Islam and the Qur’an, and the same is true of my wife and child. If I am guilty of taking an opposing stance to that which you occupy then I am truly sorry, but hope that you respect my right to disagree.

“If by Allah (swt)’s Will my son rejects Islam then to him his fate has been written.”

Okay, but would you seek to enforce ‘Allah’s will’ if he chose to reject Islam?

“I cannot force him to accept Islam in his heart; there is no compulsion in religion.”

You are right; there should be no compulsion in religion. But, if this were true for all, why then are apostates from Islam murdered; why are young people so often coerced into following the wishes of others against their own? Why does social conformity play such a role in Islamic adherence?

“However, please in your future responses do not bring the same old, primitive and lethargic argument that in Islam there is no choice given when choosing to follow it.”

But there isn’t a choice. It’s only a tired, old argument because people like myself continue to raise this matter. If you were born Muslim (like myself) and you are unlucky enough to find yourself in a community of Muslims or an ostensibly Muslim-majority country which take a dim, hadith influenced view of your decision to reject part or even the entirety of Islam, then your life in peril. I think this categorically disclaims the mantra of ‘no compulsion in religion’.

“With what audacity do you assume that every son I will have Inshallah, will entrap a six year old girl?”

Well, without drawing your ire, it’s entirely possible for a member of your progeny to seek to commit such an act, if he is taught to believe that the shari’ah and by definition the actions of Muhammad bin Abdullah are the perfect example for leading ones life.

“If it was a sly way of attacking what the Prophet (saw) had done then you are among those that itch to follow misguidance and always resort to solipsism because you are invariably thin on sources.”

It wasn’t a sly way of attacking Muhammad bin Abdullah. According to the earliest and most reputable sources which are still endorsed today, his relationship with Ayesha began when she was 6 years old (lunar years – mayhap younger than 6 in solar years) and their marriage was consummated when Ayesha was 9 (perhaps younger).

“Firstly there is difference of opinion on the exact age of Ayesha (r.a) and on top of it a gross misrepresentation of her infancy.”

If there is difference of opinion, then I’d be interested to read the justification for this given that the earliest and most reliable sources, indeed the only sources that could possibly be relied upon to convey the facts confirm these ages.

“…What you need to realize is that it was a custom of the Arabs of that time, and is no longer prevalent in our day and age, just like slavery.”

Whilst slavery is still prevalent in many countries, of which not a few are regarded as Islamic ones, albeit, in some cases under the guise of servitude, this is another matter entirely. The fact that sexual maturity has varied both historically and geographically, intellectual maturity has not and by no stretch of the imagination could the age of 9 be considered an intellectually mature age to consummate a marriage; in any culture or time. Besides, we’re lving in the 21st century, not 7th century Arabia. If those who seek to endorse the perfect example of Muhammad bin Abdullah in both word and deed are flexible enough to ‘think deeply’ concerning this particular issue in order to prohibit its advocacy today, what is to stop other controversail aspects of Islamic orthodoxy being abrogated or in some way ‘discontinued’. I would welcome discussion on his particular point.

“Your shotgun remarks to try demote Islam and its values are flimsicle and misconstrued. It is no surprise you move on every single point, without exception, from incorrect premises to false conclusions.”

My remarks are only ‘shotgun’ in terms of the speed by which I type. I don’t seek to ‘demote’ Islam as it has no particular elevated or exceptional status in my philosophical system to start with. Whilst you may disagree with the premises upon which I base my objections, they cannot be objectivally considered to be false. You are of course at liberty to consider my conclusions as fallacious. Without different conclusions, we’d have no grounds for discussion would we?

With my very best wishes,

Hussein

With regards to Brother Yusuf’s point, as I understand, agrees with me about the scope of the article covering the issue of sexual intimacy outside the realms of marriage is wrong. My aim of highlighting the NASUWT chief’s comment was to highlight the ever deepening vortex of the sexual problems this society faces due to, which you rightly pointed from my perspective the values of freedom.

Which “half facts” and sanctimonious ideals are you perceiving from my blog? That sex should take place in the environment of marriage. That when parents send their children to school, they should have the peace of mind that they are in safe, ethical, moral and responsible hands as oppose to fearing their offspring’s virginity being stripped? It is this very unaccountable, individualistic, unapprised value of personal sexual freedom that is accountable for such sorry state of affairs to exist in this society.

I am sorry, if you can clarify for me what religious teachings I am espousing from your understanding I will duly provide the religious evidences accordingly.

I think both you and Brother Yusuf are possibly assuming that I was basing my criticism on the 2003 Sexual Offences Act. I am not that interested in the ramifications of this law because I, nor does brother Yusuf, believe in the notion that any 16 yrs old person can have sex with whom or whatever he/she may want.

In your own statement as well as brother Yusuf’s, you clearly delineate how the teacher can end up as the guilty party!!!! Let alone the effect it will have on the student in his/her future life. So, in order to remove this problem why create an environment in the first place for it to exist? Simply announcing that teachers should not be on the sex offenders list does not anyway deal with the mirage and multitude of problems in society that will occur if this teacher – pupil relationship continues to flourish.

If the teacher in a capacity has a future husband or wife interacts with the student and wants to make it a long term relationship in a form of a marriage, I have no qualms. But if they wish to participate outside marriage than I believe they should be punished under the laws of fornication. Convicted teachers being put on the sex offenders list….it just does not cut it.

The laws in this country have many anomalies, and will inevitably be debated and discussed constantly. However your observation of many Muslims having real hatred for freedom, I believe Freedom is a fallacy and selectively applied in this society let me quantify this for you…”Jewel of Medina.”

@Shaykh Rattle ‘n’ Roll – Point taken…please, I’m not trying to wind anyone up with my comments; I just ran with the ‘teaching’ element of the post and, well you know the rest.

In future, if I see something piquant, I’ll confine my comments to the main theme of the post. I’ll also try to be more concise.

You are all of course at liberty to post whatever you like on your own website, but let me just state categorically why I comment frrom time to time:

Postings and articles across the net which inspire me to comment usually deal with the ‘Islamic solution’ motif. Agreed, this is an extremely wide category, but its frequent bedfellow ‘Western decay’ usually narrows the scope of the postings to which I add my 5 pence worth.

I don’t wish to enrage or offend anyone and this is most certainly not my intention by commenting. However, if we can discuss Islam and proposed Islamic solutions for putative Western/global maladies without raising/drawing your ire, then I’m happy to contribute.

I think I’ve stated before that my opinions likely diverge very little from your own. I’m not a closet ‘Islamophobe’ and nor do I give any credence to such a term; what I can bring to the discussion is a wealth of personal experience, a lifetime of exposure to Islamic adherence and a reasonable understanding of Arabic and the Islamic sciences.

With my very best wishes!

@Badr ud-Deen al-Huthi
Hussein,

While we may in fact agree on some (perhaps many?) issues, I think the root of our differences can be found in the point I raised, and which you acknowledge in the first line of your comment.

You state:

I don’t consider the Qur’an the literal word of God

If it could be rationally proven that there is a Creator, and that the Qur’an is the literal word of this Creator, I think our disagreement would end. In fact since your use of a “moral filter” rests upon the above condition, we ought to find that all of your concerns about Islam would end.

In all honestly, I would not be able to do justice to this topic in a comment, and see little reason in reinventing the wheel. I suggest you visit The Inimitable Qur’an, where the author has gone to some length to address this topic. I mean this sincerely: I would love to hear your thoughts on this topic, especially given your purported knowledge of Arabic. While I know it may be tempting to respond based on a prior conversation/reading, please do read, consider and respond to the content of that website.

As you’ll note, this rather debunks the idea that I might seek to deny anyone the right to evaluate Islam; to the contrary, I am inviting you to do precisely that, but not based on your preferences or prejudices (or mine).

I’m a little concerned that we’re now completely off the topic of the original post by Ande ke phanda, so to that end I suggest that you first discuss with Brother Hamza, who has made his email address available on his site, and then feel free to reply to one of my older posts here: The Perfect Conversation Starter. I’ll make you a promise: I will be completely open minded, and if it turns out that I’m wrong about the Qur’an, I’ll openly state it.

Regards.